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Isn't it circular to say that we use periodic processes to define a time interval? Because in order to determine whether a process is periodic, i.e. whether the same changes always repeat at the same time intervals, we already need a measure of time. If we do not understand periodicity in terms of time, then it can only mean that an object regularly returns to the same place without any information of the corresponding duration.

But can't we then just as well take a spatially non-periodic movement as a clock? For example by saying that object $x$ moving from location $y$ to $z$ is defined as a second (regardless of whether it returns to $y$ at some point).

I know it can be done this way in principle, but it is usually said to be much more complicated than if we use a (spatially) periodic motion as a standard (e.g. in an answer to this post: Time and measurement relation to displacement).

Why is it more complicated if we chose a spatially non-periodic moving object as our clock?

Qmechanic
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wutzi
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3 Answers3

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Isn't it circular to say that we use periodic processes to define a time interval?

An hourglass is an easy counterexample. We don’t only use periodic processes to measure time.

We have groups of measuring devices that all agree with each other within their respective uncertainties. Such groups of devices are useful, so we give them names.

One such group is called “clocks” and the thing that they all measure is called “time”. There is nothing circular in that. It is simply naming a useful category of devices.

in order to be able to tell whether a process is periodic or not, we already need a measure of time.

Yes. And we already have it. We can use any of the group of devices called "clocks" to measure time. If the process repeats proportionally to the amount of time measured on a clock, then it is periodic.

There is nothing circular here. Periodicity doesn't define clocks. Agreement with other clocks defines clocks.

Dale
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Let's take your example.
For example by saying that object x moving from location y to z is defined as a second (regardless of whether it returns to y at some point).
Now tell me how you reproduce one "wutzi second" and tell your friends how to measure a time interval in "wutzi seconds".

Suppose you have an hourglass which empties in exactly one "wutzi hour".
How do you calibrate it into 60 "wutzi minutes"? Weight the sand that came out of the hourglass in one "wutzi hour" and then say that the time for one-sixtieth of the wutzi hour mass corresponds to a time interval of one "wutzi minute".
You then set about measuring the period of a simple pendulum.
You find that the period of a simple pendulum varies and seems to depend on which time interval on the "wutzi minute" hour glass is being used. Um!

To have a consist measure of a time interval needs you to find a sequence of events that repeat themselves and which are not influenced by external events with the two factors, reproducibility and accuracy, being crucial.

In 1956 the second was defined as "the fraction 1⁄31,556,925.9747 of the tropical year for 1900 January 0 at 12 hours ephemeris time" but since to take a measurement of a time interval one needed some sort of clock, be it mechanical, electrical, quartz based, all of which are influenced too much by external factors.
By 1967 it was decided the the events which need to be chosen to define a second were 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom".
At present this definition allows one to reproduce devices which measure time intervals accurately.

Farcher
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Isn't it circular to say that we use periodic processes to define a time interval? Because in order to determine whether a process is periodic, i.e. whether the same changes always repeat at the same time intervals, we already need a measure of time.

I think what you're saying is that we need a "master clock" to begin with, to determine whether any other clock is precise or not.

In reality, no such master clock exists.

It used to be that we just said one spin of the Earth (i.e. a solar day) was a day by definition, without any regard for each day being of even length (as determined by any other kind of clock).

The vast majority of things were synchronised to the day cycle, so if some other clock were not measuring time like the spin of the Earth, then it is regularly resynchronised to force it to keep pace with the Earth on average.

That's still pretty much the essence of how man keeps time as a whole - it's how UTC works for example - but many in physics have gone off the rails for two reasons.

One, they think they've found the "master clock" in the form of atomic clocks, when in reality they have just deviated from talking about the solar-day standard to talking about their own ad-hoc atomic standard (which they falsely present to everyone as uniquely constant in a way that nothing else is).

Two, they've become neurotic about trying to iron out resynchronisation itself (attempting the impossible), rather than conceiving a system of physics which have conventions for resynchronisation which are useful and acceptable to society.

The measurement of time is fundamentally a very political matter, typically requiring a dictator to impose a common system - as with both the Julian and Gregorian calendars, for example.

If we do not understand periodicity in terms of time, then it can only mean that an object regularly returns to the same place without any information of the corresponding duration.

Yes, but the point of a clock is to define that duration. The information that one step of duration has elapsed, is the information that the clock provides.

If another clock doesn't correspond, that is because it is a different clock, and if you're second-guessing one clock with another, then you just haven't decided yet which clock you're going to use.

The traditional beauty of the solar day as a clock, is that its progression is under nobody's control, it is visible to everybody (who make up the large civil societies), it controls most things of basic biological importance, and there is nothing that seems like a bigger and more powerful signal to life on Earth.

But can't we then just as well take a spatially non-periodic movement as a clock? For example by saying that object x moving from location y to z is defined as a second (regardless of whether it returns to y at some point).

You can do that, but eventually you're going to encounter some inconvenient extreme, such as the distance of the clock from your current location (for example, if you just set something going out into space), or the lack of sufficient resolution on the clock (for example, if you use that "pitch drop" experiment as a clock, it's very difficult to tell one year from the next, let alone keep the time of day).

Hourglasses for example are generally made cyclical by regular resets (by inverting them), otherwise they would be quickly exhausted to a static condition, and thrown on the rubbish heap.

We actively look for periodic processes in the natural world as the foundation of time-keeping, precisely because they sustain.

Steve
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