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According to the Wiki on the $R_s$, the $R_s$ of the observable universe is 13.7BLY.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius (The observable universe's mass has a Schwarzschild radius of approximately 13.7 billion light-years.[7][8])

The reference for this statement is:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1008.0933 and the Encyclopedia of Distances

Can someone please explain this to me. Is this simply because to get into the non-observable portion of the universe, you have to go faster than the speed of light?

Qmechanic
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Rick
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3 Answers3

15

In this paper, the author begins by defining the radius of the observable universe as the radius of the Hubble sphere $r_{HS}=\frac{c}{H_0}$, where $H_0$ is the Hubble constant. He then assumes that the universe is a homogeneous and isotropic collection of matter with density $\rho\approx \rho_c$, where $\rho_c=\frac{3H^2}{8\pi G}$ is the critical density of the universe at which the curvature of space is zero.

Since he assumed that the universe is homogeneous and isotropic, the author uses the classical definition of density $\rho=\frac{3M}{4\pi r_{HS}^3}$, where $M$ is the total mass of the observable universe, and with a bit of algebraic manipulation comes up with $r_{HS}=\frac{2GM}{c^2}$. The author then asserts that $r_{HS}$ is the Schwarzschild radius of the universe, because what he came up with looks like the formula for a Schwarzschild radius.

This is where the big problem is: the conditions that the author assumed in the beginning are not compatible with the conditions that admit the definition of a Schwarzschild radius. The Schwarzschild solution of the Einstein field equations requires that all of the mass of the universe is concentrated in a physical singularity at $r=0$, and the rest is vacuum. The author assumes essentially the exact opposite: that the mass of the universe is as spread out as possible, so that none of it is concentrated anywhere, there is no vacuum, and the universe has uniform density. As such, calling this a Schwarzschild radius doesn't really make sense, as it has nothing to do with the Schwarzschild solution besides sharing a superficial similarity in how we express their definitions. Just because he calls it a Schwarzschild radius doesn't mean that it is one.

The moral of the story: though finding similar expressions in different contexts can often be a useful tool to guide intuition, it doesn't actually prove any connection, and isn't a substitute for an actual proof.

3

The answer by probably_someone is technically incorrect. He is confusing the Schwarzschild radius with an event horizon. They are not the same thing.

the conditions that the author assumed in the beginning are not compatible with the conditions that admit the definition of a Schwarzschild radius. The Schwarzschild solution of the Einstein field equations requires that all of the mass of the universe is concentrated in a physical singularity at $r=0$, and the rest is vacuum. ... Just because he calls it a Schwarzschild radius doesn't mean that it is one.

A gravitational body does not need to be a black hole to have a Schwarzschild radius. Every massive body has a Schwarzschild radius, defined as $2GM/c^2$. For the Earth, the Schwarzschild radius is $2G(\text{Mass of Earth})/c^2$. This is the radius of the hypothetical sphere that you would have to compress the body's mass into for it to become a black hole. For the Earth, this is $9 \,\text{mm}$.

The Interior Schwarzschild metric is an example of a metric that uses the Schwarzschild radius and yet, this metric does not require a singularity at the center and is not a vacuum solution: $$c^2 \mathrm{d}\tau^2 = \left(1 - \frac{r_s}{r}\right) c^2 \ \mathrm{d}t^2 - \left(1 - \frac{r_s}{r}\right)^{-1} \mathrm{d}r^2 - r^2(\mathrm{d}\theta^2 + \sin^2\theta \ \mathrm{d}\phi^2),$$ where $r$ is the surface of the fluid body. For a stationary particle at the surface of the fluid body, we get: $$\frac{\mathrm{d}\tau^2}{\mathrm{d}t^2} = \sqrt{\left(1 - \frac{r_s}{r}\right)}.$$

If $r = r_s$, then $\mathrm{d}\tau/\mathrm{d}t =0$ and then we have an event horizon. If we take the author at face value and assume the Schwarzschild radius of the universe is equal to the radius of the universe (a strange coincidence?), does this imply we are inside a black hole? The answer is no because the above metric is for a fluid and as the fluid is compressed, its pressure increases. This pressure contributes to the gravitational field, and this invalidates that particular metric as a model of our universe. The universe is better modelled as a pressure-less dust solution (where the stars, planets and galaxies are treated as dust particles). The FLWR metric is such a solution: $$-c^2 \mathrm{d}\tau^2 = -c^2 \mathrm{d}t^2 + a(t)^2 \frac{\mathrm{d}r^2}{1-kr^2} + r^2 \mathrm{d}\Omega^2,$$ where $k$ has one of the values of the set $\{−1, 0, +1\}$ (for negative, zero, and positive curvature respectively). For radial motion $\mathrm{d}\omega =0$ and for a flat universe, we can set $k=0$ and, after a bit of algebraic manipulation, we obtain: $$\frac{\mathrm{d}\tau}{\mathrm{d}t} = \sqrt{1 - a(t)^2 \frac{\mathrm{d}r^2}{\mathrm{d}t^2 c^2}},$$ where $a(t)$ is the "scale factor" of the universe, a function of time. For the current epoch, we can set $a(t) =1$ and if we replace $\mathrm{d}r/\mathrm{d}t$ with $v$ in the above equation, it looks identical to the time dilation factor of special relativity. But for the FLWR metric, we have to remember that a distant galaxy on the edge of the universe that appears to be receding away from us at close to the speed can be at rest with the Hubble flow, so we have to set $\mathrm{d}r/\mathrm{d}t=0$ and unlike the event horizon of a black hole, $\mathrm{d}\tau/\mathrm{d}t$ does not go to zero. So, even if the radius of the universe is the same as its Schwarzschild radius, it does not imply we are inside a black hole with an event horizon at the visible radius of the universe when we use the appropriate metric.

Is this simply because to get into the non-observable portion of the universe, you have to go faster than the speed of light?

This is an intriguing observation. In cosmology, it is perfectly acceptable for objects to be receding from us at greater than the speed of light, and this does not violate relativity as long as locally you are not exceeding the speed of light relative to the local CMB rest frame. Even if a distant galaxy is receding from us at $2c$, it is still possible to move at $+c$ or $-c$ relative to that local galaxy at rest in the Hubble flow. An observer on a galaxy at the visible edge of the universe has no trouble moving outwards to a galaxy beyond our visible range, so she is not in any sense trapped inside the sphere we can see. In fact, that distant observer will see the Earth as being on the edge of their visible sphere.

P.S. If we consider a ballistic model of the universe where galaxies are flying apart in flat Minkowski space simply due to their initial momentum, then the furthest objects would really be moving away from us at close to the speed of light. They would have a very high redshift (high $Z$) due to the relativistic Doppler effect, which is what we observe. In such a model, it would indeed be impossible to escape the visible sphere because doing so would require travelling at greater than $c$ relative to the Earth, which is not allowed in this particular model. However, this is not the generally accepted model.

KDP
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There are two separate issues here.

Schwarzschild radius

The Schwarzschild radius for a black hole, is calculated based on some very specific assumptions. For example, they won't be valid when space is rapidly expanding.

They also may not be valid on a huge scale, such as galactic clusters, where "dark energy" or expansion are factors, but we don't know enough about those to be sure of all their effects. But intuitively, it seems likely that our usual equations for collapsing objects wouldn't apply (or would require major modifications) if we can't assume a locally uniform spacetime metric, so they would apply on small scales up to local galaxies but probably not to large regions of space where expansion varies, or times of extreme expansion, or to the universe as a whole.

That's why the initial universe, though very dense, didn't re-collapse. The equations that determine when collapse happens, which we can apply in the current universe, are based on assumptions and approximations that just wouldn't be valid in the conditions of the early universe.

Observable universe

The other issue going on, is the observability and horizon of our universe, which is for a completely different reason. Special relativity is the principle / natural law which says that nothing can travel (no known type of signal can propagate) faster than the speed of light. But special relativity applies to propagation within spacetime. In the very early universe (and much less nowadays) spacetime itself was expanding. This wasn't an expansion like we are used to. It was a change to the actual geometry of spacetime itself. As such, it didn't have a limit to its speed. It happened a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang. ** Suddenly, points in space that were "close together" (in some sense) became trillions of trillions of times more distant in a very short time. Wikipedia says the expansion was of the order of 10^26 in linear dimensions, or 10^78 in volume terms.

In "intuitive" rather than precise scientific terms, points that might have been reachable by light from each other in moments suddenly found themselves so distant that light needed immense amounts of time to travel between them.

If two such points suddenly found themselves much more than 13.7 billion light years apart (due to expansion), then there wouldn't have been time for light from one point to reach the other, even in the 13.7 billion years since that huge expansion. So they literally would not be observable now, because signals couldn't reach us in any way from them. ** Hence this means there's a practical "radius" or limit to what we can hope to observe, set by the speed of light itself - called the observable universe.

** We could in theory observe some of these distant objects from times before that expansion, when they weren't located outside the observable universe, but the expansion occurred in the first 10^-32 or so of a second, when the universe was so energy intense that we can't really hope to ever observe anything from that era.

Stilez
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