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Suppose Bob has $15K invested in an account with 2 funds (for this question we'll assume a Canadian RRSP, but the country/tax implications probably aren't relevant).

He has $10K in a conservative balanced fund (let's call it Fund #1) that historically averages 6.5% per year return, but can fluctuate. For example, in the crash of 2008 it lost 12%, and in the recent volatile market it has also been losing about -1.5%. The MER (Management Expense Ratio) for the fund is also relatively high at 1.85%, so unless the fund makes more than 1.85%, Bob loses money on it.

Bob's remaining $5K is in an ultra-conservative short-term income fund which has never lost money year over year. Fund #2's historical average return is 4.5%. Bob is not terribly risk averse, but he's in this fund because he anticipates an upcoming major home repair and wants to keep the money safe while enjoying some meager gains. The MER on this fund is a much better 1.15%.

Bob has set up a $250 monthly payroll contribution to his investments. All new contributions are going into Fund #1. Bob is happy with this long-term plan.

This morning Bob calls his account rep and requests a one-time withdrawal of $2000 because he needs the money for something important. Bob asks to withdraw from Fund #1 because it is not performing well. He believes the market will be volatile for the next little while, and wants to use this as an opportunity to reduce his exposure a bit. Also, he wants to keep Fund #2 at $5K for that anticipated future expense. To Bob's surprise, the rep advises him to do the opposite: "Withdraw the money from Fund #2. You have already lost recently from Fund #1, and if you reduce it now, you'll never gain back that loss. Long-term, this is the better strategy."

Bob replies: "What I have lost in the past is irrelevant. I only care about the safest strategy going forward. I can't predict the future, but I'm pretty confident that for the next few months, my money is safer in Fund #2."

Is Bob getting good advice from his rep? Or is the rep just towing his company line and trying to keep more of Bob's money in the higher MER fund, thus earning more money for his company?

Jordan Rieger
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5 Answers5

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The root of the advice Bob is being given is from the premise that the market is temporarily down. If the market is temporarily down, then the stocks in "Fund #1" are on-sale and likely to go up soon (soon is very subjective).

If the market is going to go up soon (again subjective) you are probably better in fictitious Fund #1.

This is the valid logic that is being used by the rep. I don't think this is manipulative based on costs.

It's really up to Bob whether he agrees with that logic or if he disagrees with that logic and to make his own decision based on that.

If this were my account, I would make the decision on where to withdraw based on my target asset allocation. Bob (for good or bad reasons) decided on 2/3 Fund 1 and 1/3 Fund 2. I'd make the withdraw that returns me to my target allocation of 2/3 Fund 1 and 1/3 Fund 2. Depending on performance and contributions, that might be selling Fund 1, selling Fund 2, or selling some of both.

Alex B
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It looks like the advice the rep is giving is based primarily on the sunk cost fallacy; advice based on a fallacy is poor advice. Bob has recognised this trap and is explicitly avoiding it.

It is possible that the advice that the rep is trying to give is that Fund #1 is presently undervalued but, if so, that is a good investment irrespective if Bob has lost money there before or even if he has ever had funds in it.

Dale M
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Bob should treat both positions as incomplete, and explore a viewpoint which does a better job of separating value from volatility.

So we should start by recognizing that what Bob is really doing is trading pieces of paper (say Stocks from Fund #1 or Bonds from Fund #2, to pick historically volatile and non-volatile instruments.*) for pieces of paper (Greenbacks). In the end, this is a trade, and should always be thought of as such. Does Bob value his stocks more than his bonds? Then he should probably draw from Fund #2. If he values his bonds more, he should probably draw from Fund #1.

However, both Bob and his financial adviser demonstrate an assumption: that an instrument, whether stock bond or dollar bill, has some intrinsic value (which may raise over time). The issue is whether its perceived value is a good measure of its actual value or not.

From this perspective, we can see the stock (Fund #1) as having an actual value that grows quickly (6.5% - 1.85% = 4.65%), and the bond (Fund #2) as having an actual value that grows slower (4.5% - 1.15$ = 3.35$). Now the perceived value of the stocks is highly volatile. The Chairman of the Fed sneezes and a high velocity trader drives a stock up or down at a rate that would give you whiplash.

This perspective aligns with the broker's opinion. If the stocks are low, it means their perceived value is artificially low, and selling it would be a mistake because the market is perceiving those pieces of paper as being worth less than they actually are. In this case, Bob wins by keeping the stocks, and selling bonds, because the stocks are perceived as undervalued, and thus are worth keeping until perceptions change.

On the other hand, consider the assumption we carefully slid into the argument without any fanfare: the assumption that the actual value of the stock aligns with its historical value. "Past performance does not predict future results." Its entirely possible that the actual value of the stocks is actually much lower than the historical value, and that it was the perceived value that was artificially higher. It may be continuing to do so... who knows how overvalued the perceived value actually was! In this case, Bob wins by keeping the bonds. In this case, the stocks may have "underperformed" to drive perceptions towards their actual value, and Bob has a great chance to get out from under this market.

The reality is somewhere between them. The actual values are moving, and the perceived values are moving, and the world mixes them up enough to make Scratchers lottery tickets look like a decent investment instrument. So what can we do?

Bob's broker has a smart idea, he's just not fully explaining it because it is unprofessional to do so. Historically speaking, Bobs who lost a bunch of money in the stock market are poor judges of where the stock market is going next (arguably, you should be talking to the Joes who made a bunch of money. They might have more of a clue.). Humans are emotional beings, and we have an emotional instinct to cut ties when things start to go south. The market preys on emotional thinkers, happily giving them what they want in exchange for taking some of their money. Bob's broker is quoting a well recognized phrase that is a polite way of saying "you are being emotional in your judgement, and here is a phrasing to suggest you should temper that judgement."

Of course the broker may also not know what they're doing! (I've seen arguments that they don't!) Plenty of people listened to their brokers all the way to the great crash of 2008. Brokers are human too, they just put their emotions in different places. So now Bob has no clear voice to listen to. Sounds like a trap!

However, there is a solution. Bob should think about more than just simple dollars. Bob should think about the rest of his life, and where he would like the risk to appear. If Bob draws from Fund #1 (liquidating stocks), then Bob has made a choice to realize any losses or gains early... specifically now. He may win, he may lose. However, no matter what, he will have a less volatile portfolio, and thus he can rely on it more in the long run.

If Bob draws from Fund #2 (liquidating bonds) instead, then Bob has made a choice not to realize any losses or gains right away. He may win, he may lose. However, whether he wins or loses will not be clear, perhaps until retirement when he needs to draw on that money, and finds Fund #1 is still under-performing, so he has to work a few more years before retirement. There is a magical assumption that the stock market will always continue rewarding risk takers, but no one has quite been able to prove it!

Once Bob includes his life perspective in the mix, and doesn't look just at the cold hard dollars on the table, Bob can make a more educated decision. Just to throw more options on the table, Bob might rationally choose to do any one of a number of other options which are not extremes, in order to find a happy medium that best fits Bob's life needs:

  • Dollar cost average the funds out of the funds. By drawing them out slowly, you use statistics to decrease the likelihood that you make an undervalued exchange (and, of course, also decreasing the likelihood that you get over on the market by cashing out at a good moment)
  • Draw from both funds. There's no particular reason Bob needs to pick Fund #1 or Fund #2 to draw from. Bob can draw from them in any ratio he pleases. This gives Bob more opportunities to find the balance that fits Bob's life, not just a broker's market opinion.
  • Find money from a third source. Money doesn't grown on trees, but never forget the possibility that you might underestimate your access to resources by focusing simply on 2 funds. There may be a win-win scenario here that Bob didn't even see coming!

* I intentionally chose to label Fund #1 as stocks and Fund #2 as bonds, even though this is a terribly crude assumption, because I feel those words have an emotional attachment associated to them which #1 and #2 simply do not. Given that part of the argument is that emotions play a part, it seemed reasonable to dig into underlying emotional biases as part of my wording. Feel free to replace words as you see fit to remove this bias if desired.

Cort Ammon
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I think the advice Bob is being given is good.

Bob shouldn't sell his investments just because their price has gone down. Selling cheap is almost never a good idea. In fact, he should do the opposite: When his investments become cheaper, he should buy more of them, or at least hold on to them. Always remember this rule: Buy low, sell high.

This might sound illogical at first, why would someone keep an investment that is losing value? Well, the truth is that Bob doesn't lose or gain any money until he sells. If he holds on to his investments, eventually their value will raise again and offset any temporary losses. But if he sells as soon as his investments go down, he makes the temporary losses permanent.

If Bob expects his investments to keep going down in the future, naturally he feels tempted to sell them. But a true investor doesn't try to anticipate what the market will do. Trying to anticipate market fluctuations is speculating, not investing. Quoting Benjamin Graham:

The most realistic distinction between the investor and the speculator is found in their attitude toward stock-market movements. The speculator's primary interest lies in anticipating and profiting from market fluctuations. The investor's primary interest lies in acquiring and holding suitable securities at suitable prices. Market movements are important to him in a practical sense, because they alternately create low price levels at which he would be wise to buy and high price levels at which he certainly should refrain from buying and probably would be wise to sell.

Assuming that the fund in question is well-managed, I would refrain from selling it until it goes up again.

Zenadix
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I think that Bob has good reasons for his planned spending and should follow his plan, not the dubious advice from an account rep.

Jack Swayze Sr
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