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I understand the transfer function up to the point of \$ H(\omega) = \lvert H(\omega) \rvert \angle H(\omega) \$ where the magnitude and phase are decoupled into two separate functions, equivalent of saying \$ H(\omega) = { Y_0 \over X_0} \cdot e^{j(\angle y- \angle x \; \text {in radian})} \$. I can understand this in polar equation on the complex plan.

Then all of a sudden the transfer function jumps into \$ H(j\omega) = \lvert H(j\omega) \rvert \angle H(j\omega) \$ swapping every \$ \omega \$ with \$ j\omega \$. I'm lost. I searched here and there but I found no explanation on how and why \$ j \$ axis is transformed into \$ j\omega \$ axis, or why \$ j\omega \$ axis is added to the complex plane as a third axis if it's a different axis.

  • Does \$ j\omega \$ axis mean \$ j \$ axis multiplied by a frequency magnitude of \$ \omega \$? If so what does it mean and why an axis has a magnitude? That make no sense to me whatsoever to give magnitude to an axis as axis should only be directional (imagine if someone ask me to graph a line on the x-2y axis instead of a x-y axis)
  • Or, is \$ j\omega \$ an entirely different axis from \$ j \$ axis - meaning a number on \$ j\omega \$ axis has no relation to a number on \$ j \$ axis? If that's the case could someone help explain what are their difference and when should I use which?
  • Since \$ \omega \$ is the angular velocity, could \$ j \omega \$ represent the rotational axis, a third axis that is orthogonal to \$ j \$ axis and the real axis like a cross product sort of thing?

[EDIT]

Just to clarify my thought process here. If I have 2D plane with two axis, x and y, I can define a value \$ z = ax + by \$, where a is a position on the x-axis and b is a position on the y-axis. We can call the value z on the x,y plane. We are not going to call it x,by or x,\$ \omega y\$ plane.

Same logic goes here where the complex frequency s is a value on \$ \sigma \$ or real axis and on \$ j \$ imaginary axis. So a value of s is \$ s = a\sigma + bj\$, where a and b are positions on the real and imaginary axis. So s is on \$ \sigma,j \$ plane, not \$ \sigma,\omega j \$ plane. What is \$ j \omega \$ axis?

KMC
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    It is only (abuse of) notation. H is a function of omega. Since omega "always" come paired with a j as mentioned in the answer, some sources write H as a function of jw. Other than this notation difference, you will notice that the actual expressions are same in all the sources. – AJN Nov 07 '20 at 11:13
  • @AJN why $ \omega $ always come paired with $ j $? An $ j $ frequency is sine and a real / non-$ j $ frequency is cosine. If my $ \omega $ frequency only has cosine, then I could have $ \sigma \omega $ instead of $ j \omega $? – KMC Nov 07 '20 at 12:50
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    You may be confusing the s variable concept with the concept of phasors where horizontal axis represents cosine and vertical axis the sine (or cosine). Or the concept of Fourier series where the complex coefficient $c_n$ has real part made from coefficient of cosine and imaginary part from coefficient of sine. The concept used here is different. $$\cos(\omega t) = \frac{1}{2} (\exp(j \omega t) + \exp(-j \omega t))$$ and $$\sin(\omega t) = \frac{1}{2j} (\exp(j \omega t) - \exp(-j \omega t))$$ Can you provide sources to the claim "j frequency is sine and a real / non-j frequency ..." – AJN Nov 07 '20 at 12:58
  • @AJN as for the source, that's how the Euler's formula is defined $ e^{j\theta} = cos(\theta) + jsin(\theta) $. If a frequency is even (or cosine) then the frequency only has a real part and the imaginary part (sine or j) must be zero. If $ sin(\omega t) = {1 \over {2j}}(exp(j \omega t) − exp(− j \omega t)) $ then is this on j axis or j $ \omega $ axis? – KMC Nov 07 '20 at 13:12
  • What I quoted is also just a rearranged version of Euler's formula. AFAIK, there are no separate omega and j.omega axes. It the same axis; just different notation, to my knowledge. The existing answer has some details. – AJN Nov 07 '20 at 13:32
  • @AJN, frankly the existing answer provides little insight to my question. The notation used here is confusing so let me rewrite the equation precisely to be $ s = \sigma \hat {\sigma} + \omega \hat {j} $ where $ \hat {\sigma} $ and $ \hat {j} $ are the orthogonal unit vectors and $ \sigma $ and $ \omega $ are values on the axis. But here we transform $ \hat {j} $ axis to $ \hat {j \omega} $, then we end up with $ s = \sigma \hat {\sigma} + \omega \hat {j \omega} $? – KMC Nov 07 '20 at 13:51
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    No. An $\omega j \omega$ term with two $\omega$ doesn't arise. You might as well imagine that the j is absent in the notation H(jw). Only reason I can currently think of as to why books use the H(jw) notation is probably to distinguish it from $H(e^{j\omega})$ that we may encounter in discrete time systems. – AJN Nov 07 '20 at 14:30
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    "Then all of a sudden the transfer function jumps into H(jω)=|H(jω)|∠H(jω) swapping every ω with jω." Can you provide a link or a photo where this happens (within the same book / website) ? – AJN Nov 07 '20 at 14:31
  • @KMC See if this short video by Brian Douglas helps. – relayman357 Nov 07 '20 at 14:58
  • @relayman357 I've discovered his videos few days back and in fact that was one of the sources that leads me to this question. The video starts with this $ H(j \omega) = - {1 \over \omega} j $. H is a function of a thing called $ j \omega $ but the function itself breaks $ j \omega $ apart with $ j $ in the numerator and $ \omega $ in the denominator. I understand there's this frequency $ -1 \over \omega $ with a phase rotated fully onto the imaginary axis by $ j $, hence giving $ sin(\omega t) $ signal. But again, what the heck is this $ j \omega $?? – KMC Nov 07 '20 at 15:45
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    @KMC complex numbers are not vectors. There is no $\hat{\j}$ or $\hat{\sigma}$. The reason to write the transfer function in terms of $j\omega$ is just to emphasize that the frequency domain is a subset of the $s$ domain. – The Photon Nov 07 '20 at 16:07
  • It's not 'j axis' it's 'w axis' cz w is what is changing on that axis. 'j' doesn't change, its a mathematical constant square root of one. 'j' just denotes w is an imaginary component of the complex number formed with sigma on x-axis. – Mitu Raj Nov 07 '20 at 19:00

1 Answers1

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We start with $$H(s)$$ in the frequency domain, and since $$s =\sigma+j\omega$$ We can replace s with $$H(\sigma+j\omega)$$ But, in steady state the real part (sigma) is zero, so we get,

$$H(j\omega)$$

To clarify the "transient" (sigma) vs. "steady-state" (omega) , here is damped cosine, $$h(t)=e^{-0.8t}cos(5t)$$ enter image description here

Re-writing with only exponentials (using euler), $$h(t)=e^{-0.8t}(\frac{e^{j5t}+e^{-j5t}}{2})$$

Here you can see the exponential with the real value (-0.8) is the transient influence, and those with the imaginary (j5 and -j5) are steady-state. In this case the steady-state settles out to zero, so i'll give another example that does not.

Let, $$f(t)=e^{-0.8t}cos(5t)-cos(5t)$$

enter image description here

Re-writing with all exponentials,

$$f(t)=e^{-0.8t}(\frac{e^{j5t}+e^{-j5t}}{2})-(\frac{e^{j5t}+e^{-j5t}}{2})$$

For completeness, here are the Laplace transforms of the above two time functions h(t) and f(t),

$$\mathcal{L}[h(t)]=H(s)=\frac{s+0.8}{s^2+1.6s+25.64}$$

and,

$$\mathcal{L}[f(t)]=F(s)=\frac{0.8s^2+0.64s-20}{(s^2+25)(s^2+1.6s+25.64)}$$

and now they are in the s-domain and you can analyze them with frequency domain tools/methods.

relayman357
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  • Why in steady state the real part (sigma) is zero and why is attached to or multiplied with ? And my question was why $ s = \sigma + j \omega $? If s is a complex plane between real and imaginary, then that should be $ s = \sigma + j $, not $ s = \sigma + j \omega $. And if we were to multiply $ \omega $ to the function, shouldn't we have $ \omega s = \omega \sigma + j \omega $? – KMC Nov 07 '20 at 12:58
  • @KMC the sigma part is already scaled by omega implicitly. Look at the 3D picture I put in my answer to your previous question; sigma = zeta x omega_n. Dunno if that is what you are looking for? – Andy aka Nov 07 '20 at 13:21
  • @Andyaka I can't understand anything from the answers on my previous question so I went on reading Fourier analysis and intro control systems behind these answers but the abstraction/notations are absolutely confusing hence this question. I don't understand what $ \zeta $ means and I couldn't find tutorials online explaining what $ \zeta $ is on a Bode plot. But here I first want to figure what $ j \omega $ axis is and perhaps I could figure out the $ \zeta $ myself. – KMC Nov 07 '20 at 13:33
  • I am sympathetic; we learn about spectrum analysers and use them but refer to the x axis in terms of Hz or rads/sec then, out of the blue, for bode plots we plug a j in front of frequency. Yet, that's the only bloody axis that is real AND gets a "j" in front of it and, the axis that doesn't exist in reality is left without a "j". It's the maths. At what point did we forget about the real world we exist in LOL – Andy aka Nov 07 '20 at 14:02