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I understand that similar questions like this one have been asked before on this site, listed below. However, I am confused about the answers. If I explain what I think I understand, can somebody please point out where i'm wrong?

I'll start with what I do know:

Shannon Law gives the theoretical upper limit

$$C_{noisy}=B*log_{2}(1+\frac{S}{N})$$

if S = N, then C = B

As N→∞, C→0

As N→0, C→∞

Nyquist Formula says approximately how many levels are needed to achieve this limit

$$C_{noiseless}=2*B*log_{2}M$$

(If you do not use enough logic levels you can not approach the shannon limit, but by using more and more levels you will not exceed the shannon limit)


My problem is that I'm having a hard time understanding why bandwidth relates to bit rate at all. To me it seems like the upper limit of the frequency that can be sent down the channel is the important factor.

Here's a very simplified example: No noise at all, 2 logic levels (0V and 5V), no modulation, and a bandwidth of 300 Hz (30 Hz - 330 Hz). It will have a Shannon Limit of ∞, and a Nyquist Limit of 600bps. Also assume that the channel is a perfect filter so anything outside of the bandwidth is completely dissipated. As I double the bandwidth, I double the bit rate etc.

But why is this? For two level digital transmission With a bandwidth of 300 Hz (30 Hz - 330 Hz), the digital signal of "0V's" and "5V's" will be a (roughly) square wave. This square wave will have the harmonics below 30 Hz and above 330 Hz dissipated, so it will not be perfectly square. If it has a fundamental frequency at the minimum 30 Hz, (so the "0V's" and "5V's" are switching 30 times a second), then there will be a good amount of harmonics and a nice square wave. If it has a fundamental frequency at the max 330 Hz, the signal will be a pure sine wave as there are no higher order harmonics to make it square. However, as there is no noise the receiver will still be able to discriminate the zeros from the ones. In the first case the bit rate will be 60 bps, as the "0V's" and "5V's" are switching 30 times a second. In the second case the bit rate will be a maximum of 660bps, (if the threshold switching voltage of the receiver is exactly 2.5V), and slightly less if the threshold voltage is different.

However this differs from the expected answer of 600 bps for the upper limit. In my explanation it is the upper limit of the channel frequency that matters, not the difference between the upper and lower limit (bandwidth). Can somebody please explain what have I misunderstood?

Also when my logic is applied to the same example but using FSK modulation (frequency shift keying), I get the same problem.

If a zero is expressed as a 30 Hz carrier frequency, a one is expressed as a 330 Hz carrier frequency, and the modulation signal is 330 Hz, then the max bit rate is 660 bps.

Again, can somebody please clear up my misunderstanding?

Also why use a square wave in the first place? Why cant we just send sine waves and design the receivers to have a switching threshold voltage exactly in the middle between the max and min value of the sin wave? This way the signal would take up much less bandwidth.

Thanks for reading!

Blue7
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  • Apologies for the very poor formatting, I didn't preview before I posted. I have fixed this now. – Blue7 Mar 30 '14 at 22:08
  • @Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams, oh okay, that surprises me; I assumed that it would simplify my example. 5 or so Harmonics usually gives a pretty decent square wave though so why would you need frequencies outside the bandwidth to avoid distortion? – Blue7 Mar 30 '14 at 22:13
  • Instead of thinking about what happens with a passband of 30-300 Hz, imagine what would happen if your passband was 1.0 to 1.3 kHz, for example. – The Photon Mar 30 '14 at 22:30
  • @ThePhoton: I suppose in this case you will not be able to have any higher order harmonics, because when the fundamental frequency is 1kHz, the 1st harmonic is 3KHz, which is way outside the passband. But this still leave me confused. What would be the harm in just transmitting the fundamental frequency? – Blue7 Mar 30 '14 at 22:47
  • first some terminology. The fundamental is the same thing as the first harmonic. If the fundamental is 1 kHz,then 3 kHz is the third harmonic. – The Photon Mar 31 '14 at 00:10
  • Next, just transmitting the fundamental (or carrier) transmits no information. To carry information you have to modulate the carrier somehow. If you start switching a carrier on and off, the spectrum is no longer just a narrow line, it spreads out depending on how you modulate it. If you have a passband between 1.0 and 1.3 kHz, you'd only be able to modulate your carrier with an information signal of about 300 Hz, and you'd only be able to use that to convey information at the rate determined by the SNR and the Shannon-Nyquist formula. – The Photon Mar 31 '14 at 00:13
  • @ThePhoton: Thankyou for your answer. However won't the 3 KHz be the second harmonic then as a square wave is odd multiples of the fundamental? link (use zoom box to see the wave). – Blue7 Mar 31 '14 at 11:25
  • no we still call it the 3rd harmonic. The n'th harmonic is at at n times the fundamental frequency. We just say "there is no 2nd harmonic present in an ideal square wave." – The Photon Mar 31 '14 at 16:17
  • It's actually the other way around. Higher bit rate means more bandwidth. – user253751 Feb 05 '18 at 03:25

3 Answers3

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It's a subtle point, but your thinking is going astray when you think of a 330-Hz tone as somehow conveying 660 bits/second of information. It doesn't — and in fact, a pure tone conveys no information at all other than its presence or absence.

In order transmit information through a channel, you need to be able to specify an arbitrary sequence of signaling states that are to be transmitted, and — this is the key point — be able to distinguish those states at the other end.

With your 30-330 Hz channel, you can specify 660 states per second, but it will turn out that 9% of those state sequences will violate the bandwidth limitations of the channel and will be indistinguishable from other state sequences at the far end, so you can't use them. This is why the information bandwidth turns out to be 600 b/s.

Dave Tweed
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  • Actually, by sending only 30 symbols of 2 states per second, the data rate is 30bps. Nyquist tells us about the upper data rate limit given a bandwidth and number of states per symbol. The chosen FSK encoding does not come close to this limit as the chosen frequencies are not optimum. Nyquist says that we can choose better frequencies. – le_top Jun 11 '16 at 12:17
  • @le_top: Just to be clear, I was not talking about FSK modulation, even though the OP mentioned it in his question. I'm talking about straight baseband signaling (e.g., two voltage levels). I don't think anything I wrote was worth a downvote. Can you explain what you think is wrong with what I wrote? – Dave Tweed Jun 11 '16 at 13:50
  • The presence or absence of the 330Hz tone does convey information as its presence can be interpreted as a 1 and its absence as a 0. The modulation is on/off.
  • So the 330Hz could convey 660bps information in the absence of the 30Hz tone. Which would be noise in Shannon's formula.
  • The confusion still existed after reading this.
  • It is not explained that the 9% loss is explained by the Nyquist sampling theorem indicating that the signal is perfectly reconstructed from precisely 2B samples per second.
  • – le_top Jun 11 '16 at 15:12
  • If you try to do more, you have aliasing effects, hence the limitation 2B symbols equal to the number of samples.
  • 2B symbols of each 1 bit (2 states) is 600bps with B=300.
  • 660 states are possible if symbols represent at least 2.2 states.
  • – le_top Jun 11 '16 at 15:12
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    @le_top: I really don't understand where you're going with this. We have not been talking about sampled (discrete-time) systems at all, so the question of aliasing never arises. What is your point relative to the question at hand? – Dave Tweed Jun 11 '16 at 23:09
  • The question is about the Nyquist formula ( Cnoiseless=2∗B∗log2M ). It's based on the fact that a signal with bandwidth B can be completely reconstructed from 2B samples. This leads to the maximum symbol rate one can have in a channel given the bandwidth which is also valid when not sampling. If not, we'ld have to conclude that the Nyquist formula does not apply because we do not talk about sampling, but it does apply. * The intermittent 30Hz signal and the intermittent 330Hz signal are both bandwidth limited resulting in symbol aliasing [" indistinguishable from other state sequences"] – le_top Jun 11 '16 at 23:31
  • @le_top Once you start turning it on and off it's not a 330Hz tone any more, it's something different. If you analyze the something different you'll find its bandwidth changes. – user253751 Feb 05 '18 at 03:30
  • It is correct that most changes to a single tone signal will result in a theoretical infinite occupied bandwidth. Even a 300-330 FSK occupies infinite bandwidth. * But that is not so important with Nyquist. What is important is the bandwidth that we look at/our sample rate. * By the way: that bandwidth is not limited to 600bps, but to 600 symbol per second. One symbol can convey more than one bit. * A symbol can be a change in amplitude or more complex. * Sampling a signal implies that you are bandwith limiting the signal - aliasing out of band signals. – le_top Feb 05 '18 at 09:27